[(EU) POLITICS]: Should the people be allowed to vote on BREXIT again?

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
11/15/2018 at 14:06 • Filed to: None

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I’d like to learn some European Oppos’ thoughts on this.

DISCUSSION (39)

djmt1 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 14:19

Sure we should be allowed to vote on any and everything. T he question is whether or not the government listens. The last vote was only supposed to be advisory hence why it was so vague but here we. Thundering onwards without a clue where we’re gonna end up.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > djmt1
11/15/2018 at 14:22

I don’t know anything except that the Brits are confused as to which side of an automobile the steering wheel belongs on, but gosh, where’s the upside to exiting the EU?

Leon711 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 14:24

You’re damn right we should be able to vote again. As mentioned it was an advisory referendum and one that was dubious at best in its legitimacy. Anyone who thinks we are head ing in the right direction or that it's not some sort of national self harm clearly has a warped view of what actually benefits people.

djmt1 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 14:33

Many arguments were made, some true some utter bollocks. But to play Devil’s advocate:

Less immigrants and the immigrants we get are the ones we want.

No more plundering o f our fish stocks.

Ability to make trade deals with the whole world at a greater pace and deals more suited to British interests .

Restoring the sovereignt y of the British economical, legal and political systems.

No more taxpayers money to be sent to the EU.

SAVING THE NHS!

Of course as we’re finding out these promises were easier said than done.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Leon711
11/15/2018 at 14:33

Do you see a possibility that Brexit could just collapse?

djmt1 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 14:40

Not a chance in hell. Short of May having a massive change of heart (which will be hard due to her lack of one) there are no systems in place to stop Brexit. We’re leaving in March 2019 and all there is to be dec ided is under what terms.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > djmt1
11/15/2018 at 15:11

Thank you for that. Would that be considered a politically conservative view?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > djmt1
11/15/2018 at 15:17

What’s your line of work?

djmt1 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 15:19

Yes and no and that’s the problem. The conservative party were the ones who made the arguments but it was a minority faction within the party and more importantly not the party’s official standp oint at the time.

djmt1 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 15:21

Carer for the elderly.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 15:27

Yeah, they definitely should. The original vote was so vague there’s no way anyone had any idea what exactly they were voting on. I suppose that happens with most elections where various parties spin things a certain way. But there’s always a base set of facts that people could actually refer to knowing that a vote means XYZ. Pretty sure that wasn’t the case here - but as the details emerge and actual blueprint is finalized, sure people should have the right to actually vote on that specific package.

Also, an observation – especially given whom we’re talking about here. I find it pretty ironic that the Brits of all people, who spent the last few centuries invading and pillaging vast portions of the world (I’m a citizen of such a country, so sure I may have an axe to grind here), are now the ones complaining about oh those damn immigrants. Ha, legal ones at that, and a good number of the ones pro-Brexiters seem to hate are actually highly skilled and very beneficial to the country’s economy. But they’re brown! A lot of similarities to the immigration hysterics in the US, but just that much more ridiculous given their history of colonization that is barely just winding down.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > djmt1
11/15/2018 at 15:36

But the die is cast, right?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > djmt1
11/15/2018 at 15:37

So is that a proper career in the UK? In the US, it’s minimum pay.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/15/2018 at 15:41

Purely superficially, my wife and I watch a lot of British crime drama on Netflix and the casting is incredibly diverse; black and brown men and women, with women of color actually calling shots! If Netflix is to be believed, and what’s not original to them has been bought from BBC in some cases, like Bodyguard, London would have to be one of the most diverse, most progressive cities on the planet.

djmt1 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 15:50

Same here but given the subject matter of your post my a ccounting degree isn’t in high demand. That said I just paid of my student debt today so hey I guess I have more leeway pay wise.

djmt1 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 15:51

Yup short of a change of heart from the Prime Minister.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 15:52

Yup it absolutely is, and it’s an amazing thriving place full of so much life. It’s not the folks in London pushing for Brexit – it’s their version of folks who live in rural areas here screaming about how crime ridden and dangerous our cities are. Statistical trends don’t back up their heightened concerns at all, and the reasonings they’re (inaccurately) implying are pretty obvious.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > djmt1
11/15/2018 at 15:57

Kinja'd!!!

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > djmt1
11/15/2018 at 15:58

And she hasn’t one... (That made me laugh when I read it...)

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/15/2018 at 16:06

The immigration thing. I’m 54 and I grew up in a very liberal household, with liberal news media on the tele every night during dinner, et cetera, though I’ve come to realize that Dad’s views are all knee-jerk and media-fed. Still, I’m a public school educator and as active at restorative justice as anyone who’s white. I don’t spend any time watching ANY news channels and I do my best to come up with my own conclusions.

Having said all of that , what I see in the United States, is a bunch of white people who are losing their control and their sway and I shouldn’t be surprised if the Trump Thing is their last gasp, their Battle of the Bulge.

But what I’ve come to realize is that the Constitution of the United States of America bakes in the racism and all the White Right have to do is duck behind a wall of Originalism to keep everything exactly as it is and not be racists. And the current administration, if one is to believe the Media, is packing the courts. With white men, by and large, I think...

But thank you for confirming that what we see on Netflix of London is not terribly far from reality; my wife will be pleased to learn that.

What’s your line of work?

djmt1 > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/15/2018 at 16:06

Ha, legal ones at that, and a good number of the ones pro-Brexiters seem to hate are actually highly skilled and very beneficial to the country’s economy. But they’re brown! A lot of similarities to the immigration hysterics in the US, but just that much more ridiculous given their history of colonization that is barely just winding down.

eh? I’ll be blunt nothing you have said there is even vaguely accurate. Firstly skilled immigration isn’ t the issue . I n fact the Brexiteers are keen to encourage it post Brexit. The “problem” is the levels of “unskilled” immigration coming from the new EU members from Eastern Europe who not only aren’t brown but I’ll be blunt look largely the same as most white British people ( I’m brown British for what it is worth).

What you’re on about happened in the 50s and there was recently a big scandal (look up Windrush) over it with the government deporting those very people illegally.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > djmt1
11/15/2018 at 16:12

OK fair enough, I haven’t been following stories about the specific types of immigrants they’re up in arms about too much. Just in general it’s still pretty ironic that you’re going through this as a country given your not so distant past escapades wandering the rest of the world.

djmt1 > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/15/2018 at 16:15

Yet again you’re pushing a very American viewpoint on the UK . Brexit was not a rural vs urban divide. Making these assumptions is what caused Brexit in the first place.

djmt1 > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/15/2018 at 16:20

The shadow of the Empire still stalks us to this day. It wasn’t long ago that the EU free future was been called Empire 2.0 by Brexiteers . Problem is what you see as irony, Brexiteers see as hypocrisy as far as they are concerned we get hammered for being foreign overlords but are expected to have one ourselves... because of course an imperialist empire is the same as mutual agreement of policy and tariffs.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 16:24

Yeah it’s pretty tough to argue for originalism when it comes to the constitution while at the same time ignoring the time period and reasonings behind all those laws came about. Top that off with things like segregation, lynchigs, etc. literally having happened during many of ours – if not, absolutely our parents – lifetimes it’s pretty funny how people (typically those with racist tendencies) can say racism isn’t a factor in anything anymore with a straight face. Throw in institutional bias in law enforcement to the topic too...not too long ago it was actually part of the design, if at least not in writing.

I’m a number cruncher for a very large corporation. Grew up in a tiny developing war torn country in Asia with a family of international aid workers. College and grad school here in the US at a very liberal hippie school, after which I chose to go after a stable career and became a CPA . That combination has pretty much left me very socially liberal but also understanding of financial limitations and responsibility. Conservatism is not something I have any problem with at all – in fact I believe it is absolutely necessary to have as a balancing mechanism. Unfortunately Trump – I will always stand by this, is absolutely no conservative. Goes for most of the current Republican party as well. He is a combination of all the worst parts of every imaginable philosophy with very, very little of any of the good. Unfortunately this seems to be a trend many countries are going through right now – just hoping it is a last dying breath of the ___ supremacists, and we can move on from it pretty quickly.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > djmt1
11/15/2018 at 16:26

because of course an imperialist empire is the same as mutual agreement of policy and tariffs

Can’t tell if being sarcastic or not. Only a culture that hasn’t had imperial overlords would ever have the arrogance to utter such nonsense. Same goes for being an equal partner with other nations for mutual benefit, but seeing it as having an overlord.

You may not see it, but there absolutely are strains of similarity between such statements and the beliefs of nationalistic white supremacists here in the US - where having equal footing as others is seen as being discriminated upon.

djmt1 > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/15/2018 at 16:31

The crazy thing is that is mild compared to some of the bollocks I’ve heard in the last 18 months. As usual Yes Minister sums it up best.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/15/2018 at 16:38

Very interesting. Do you think there will ever be an aircraft carrier Donald J. Trump? (The J is for jackass, BTW...)

As for fiscal conservatism, as restorative and justice-oriented as I want to be, there’s an epic problem of people having no skin in the game. All that free stuff that nobody places any value on, surprisingly. What if families began receiving bills from the school district for when they enroll their child but he or she never shows up? For instance...

I think you and I could have an interesting conversation over a coffee. I’ve certainly enjoyed the dialog in this space.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/15/2018 at 16:44

Wow; who knew that you could come to Oppo to read stuff like this? Deep and compelling and slightly over my head, but I suspect I’d get it if I got it...

where having equal footing as others is seen as being discriminated upon.

I like to say to people that if you had a large tray with a number of marbles on it, and the tray was tilted and all the marbles were at one end, simply leveling the tray would not redistribute the marbles. You’d have to tilt the tray back the other way for a spell of time to get the marbles to redisburse.

My favorite ignorant exclamation is, “That’s reverse racism!”

Hoccy > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 17:13

I don’t think they should. If they regret their original decision and it ends up being worse , maybe they (and other countries ) will take voting more seriously. Seeing the kind of politcal parties that gain more power in serveral countries, it seems that more and more are voting out of protest than anything else.

fintail > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 17:19

If Murkans have to live with their mistakes, so should Limeys :)

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 18:06

Agreed, sir! Honestly Oppo is probably one of the few places I even feel compelled to post/respond to topics like these. In every other platform I merely browse and chuckle. But here it always surprises me and I learn something new about others (not saying it’s always a pleasant learning experience, but it’s at least eye opening). A week or so ago I saw a bunch of posts along the lines of “when did we start discussing politics on Oppo? This is horrible!” which seemed like news to me. I’ve always found some level of political discussion going on here at least on a daily basis, and it’s generally pretty constructive without resort to stupid memes and childish name calling. I guess that’s about as good as we can strive for as a society today?!

p.s. you seem like a pretty curious person who likes thinking about the world, politics, and such. If you have any recommendations for other platforms/news sites to follow I’d love to hear them. Getting pretty old with the NYTimes, CNN, Politico circuit....tried the National Review for a little “other side” material but my eyes started hurting from all the rolling. They don’t appear to be quite the esteemed institution of logical conservatism they once were.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/15/2018 at 18:15

I am curious about a lot of things and not enough time for any of them.

I used my status as an educator, and also outright cheated, and had digital subscriptions to NYT and WSJ for a year or two, but dropped them after a period of not even looking at them. My daily go-to is Politico, as well as receiving the posts of one Victor Davis Hanson, whose writing only about 5% of which gets me past Read more , and eye rolling. Politico is liberal, but they keep digging, so I stick by them, and they also don’t have a pay wall. But I recommend VDH for his 3-5%.

There are a couple of conservatives here on Oppo from whom I’ll glean a tidbit now and again. CNN, MSNBC, FOX, none of them receive even a modicum of credit from me. Not one iota, because their motivations, as i see them, are purely entertainment value measured in commercial sponsorships. Nor Rush nor (who’s that LDS guy?) nor Rachel nor any of the talking head bloviators. No, apart from Politico, I come to Oppo to hit the crack pipe of politics. Oh: and the Reuters Wire, daily.

I’ve got probably a dozen Oppos who will respond to me here on political things and it’s always solid and politics is definitely okay here, though I am careful to put a [POLITICS] in my headers, and a buffer picture.

Do you count yourself religious?

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/15/2018 at 19:04

OK I just checked some of this VDH fellow’s writings. Couldn’t get past the first paragraph without reading the phrases “radical progressive” (in reference to Stacy Abrams…oohhkay) and “identity politics”. Yeah, no. Will add the Reuters Wire to my list though, thanks!

I don’t consider myself religious. Not anti-religion at the personal level; in fact I’m quite close to many religious people. Just that when it gets to the institutional level or to such an extreme where you’re convincing other people that your imaginary friend is better than their imaginary friend – whether you know it or not you’re already being controlled by people whose interests go beyond just following a particular philosophy (usually for political gain). I see it with “Christianity” here, I’ve seen it with Buddhism back home (seriously – imagine the stereotype of a Buddhist monk everyone has, and now think of that person beating someone else with a shoe or spitting at others. Yes, it’s disgusting).

Partly given where I grew up (it’s Sri Lanka – for a tiny country, crazy ethnic and religious diversity, and colonial past too thanks to the Portuguese, Dutch, and the Brits, and millennia of traders given the country’s location) and friends through college and work I’ve known people from every religion imaginable very well, and have met good and bad people from them all. My grandmother was the most devout Catholic I’ve ever known. My mother is Catholic as well and is probably the most giving person I’ve met. But neither of them are without fault – same goes for all humans I’d say, just at varying levels. Bottom line is there’s a lot of good to learn from all religions, but I haven’t found a compelling reason to believe that any one of them is more believable than the others (I think most people might agree, but typically have only been truly exposed to one religion so they believe that’s the best one). And frankly I’d like to think I’ve managed to be a flawed yet generally good person without adhering to any one religion. Whatever it takes for you to be a good person I’m for, just let others do the same.

We just had a kid and I know there will be pressure from family about baptism, which religion will she follow, etc. (oh my dad’s family is Buddhist while my mom’s is Catholic). We have no interest in having her follow any religion but want to expose her to as many different types of people from different walks of life as possible. I know that feeling the pressure of being pulled between two religions was really stressful for me – I don’t know if my parents even realize that (or care). Our daughter will be free to follow whatever philosophy she wants – although I am aware that she will absolutely be exposed to our biases in the process.

Which age group/subject do you teach? Any advice from being around children (?) for not screwing them up is appreciated!

pip bip - choose Corrour > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/16/2018 at 05:10

hard Brexit or nothing!

the poms voted, and the voted to leave!

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > pip bip - choose Corrour
11/16/2018 at 07:13

Well, it’s certainly not being an easy brexit...

Leon711 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
11/18/2018 at 13:30

As per DJMT1's comment, no short of a miracle, it will happen and it’s all then damage limitation. If there’s one thing I can confidently say about our current crop of politicians is that they are moronic and stubborn. How can you in the face of hard facts and constant reminders of what is at stake, still press on with an act of economic, political and social suicide. This will be worse than the hatred of Margaret Thatcher after closing down all the mines in the 80s.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Leon711
11/18/2018 at 18:53

Then I gotta ask: why do it?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/18/2018 at 18:55

I just subscribed to The Atlantic, $24/yr for digital. The writing is very high quality, any inherent biases apart. The Android app is horrible; not surprised.